Banning blackmail kink, yes or no?

[Doctor Pervert]

If you have read a few of my recent posts you'll know that blackmail has become a hot topic, and not in a good way.

First up there have been the recent spate of serious incidents with members blackmailing other members for real and things getting very nasty. On top of that are the very real risks you now face if you blackmail someone, be it as part of a kink game or not, it will still be considered a crime. It's a simple fact that if law enforcement get involved having supposed consent means nothing, you're going to jail. This is discussed in more detail in the June site report.

And this raised the question from @Randy Magnum, is it time Kink Talk put an end to hosting any kind of blackmail games?

Now I'm actually really interested to see what people think about this one. In some respects this has a number of similar problems that lead to the demise of exposure kink here. Namely people using it to make trouble for others, especially ex's by posing as them and supplying photos and information about this victim.
This is where the blackmailer really risks themselves legally, if you fall for someone feeding you information about an unsuspecting person then proceed to follow through and post photos online exposing them and even going further by informing their workplace or relatives you will be the target of the authorities. You will go down for doing someone else's dirty work.

Some key points to remember:

• Blackmail here has always been treated as a CNC activity.
• Regardless of what kink people will tell you it's impossible to consent to an illegal activity. The law treats it just the same.
• Regulations with regard to "revenge porn" have become very strict and jail is not uncommon for serious offenses.
• Always consider that as the blackmailer you may be being played.

So lets discuss this, take a poll and see what the community here says. This may be a dictatorship but occasionally I'll allow the peasants to speak.

 

[subzzzero]

I think it’s situational dependent.

So if a person is just blatantly using blackmail as a way to make another person continue in a dynamic or give pics vids etc here then they get the perma ban no questions asked. (Proof needed of blackmail of course but admin will handle that) This could be do to either never consenting or prior consent being retracted.

I do acknowledge it is a kink for some and I feel that it can also be legally participated in when done correctly. So removing a legal kink option from a kink site seems contradictory to what we all stand for as far as accepting all kinksters.

We are all adults. And I’m in no way victim blaming. But If you’re seeking blackmail play you need to know what you’re getting into. You as an adult need to not rush into it and first build a trust and relationship with the other person. Not just “here’s my nudes and ID spread me across the net.”
As the blackmailer side. You need to do the same building trust. You need to be aware of all the risks and also verify without a doubt the persons pics you’re getting are the person and not someone on a revenge kick.

This is very much a RACK kink vs SSC. If you do not know these terms go learn them and what they mean. I know it’s here on the site.

I guess my overall vote is this. Does allowing it to continue risk the site closing down due to legal issues?

 

[Doctor Pervert]

We are all adults. And I’m in no way victim blaming. But If you’re seeking blackmail play you need to know what you’re getting into.

This is actually where an awful lot of the problem stems from, there are far too many people who jump on here and their first post is along the lines of "I want someone to blackmail me." Now if everyone else was acting adult they would contact the person, explain what they are asking for is not what they actually want and so on.

It's the gap between arrival and knowledge level that cause the biggest problem. When there are lurking predators just waiting for this kind of lack of understanding to pounce on they will get to them first. I know because this exact scenario has happened at least 3 times in the past couple of months. I say at least because these are the ones who I either noticed and reached out to or who contacted me asking for help.

I guess the other really big issue though is that how easily a blackmailer who believes they are dealing with a consensual situation can have it turned around on them and be in real legal trouble. Is it really worth it?
Yes, I know that if you really go through step by step and verify you are in fact talking to the person in the photos and then work out your arrangement properly it could work. But how many actually do that?

Does allowing it to continue risk the site closing down due to legal issues?

This was ultimately what shut down exposure kink, so I agree that would be the end of it.
So far that hasn't happened but was has happened are the incidents I described already, in one of the cases family members had been contacted by the blackmailer and for me this is way past the line.

 

[herpderp42]

Luckily I am not into blackmail (or anything CNC in general), so I have no personal reasons to care about the decision, however it may be.
But I do have a question: What is the GOAL behind a potential ban?
Is it to protect the members from the dangers or is it to protect the website itself?

Because frankly speaking, I am not sure if the first goal can be achieved with a ban. People who are into it can and ultimately always will try to fulfill their desire somewhere else instead if we ban it here. And that might make it even more dangerous, if there is nobody who can inform about the potential risks (especially for the potential blakcmailer, since the blackmailee probably knows exactly what can happen, whereas the blackmailer might be unaware of the legal problems).

Can everythign regarding blackmail be moved to it's own category with
(a) very clear information regarding the risks for both sides
(b) discussion and or potential first contact is allowed but NO action of blackmail itself, wheter making an actual agreement or sharing of any information about the blackmailee

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Can everythign regarding blackmail be moved to it's own category

This is a very good idea, thank you!

In fact it may be better to create a CNC category that includes this topic and as you say it could also contain information and disclaimers for potential participants.
You're also quite right that many (most) are totally unaware of the legal ramifications so a "read me first" sticky would allow for some quick education that may change a few opinions.

Is it to protect the members from the dangers or is it to protect the website itself?

And addressing your first question last, in the first instance it is to protect members. Longer term it's about any potential looming threat to the site.

 

[subzzzero]

Luckily I am not into blackmail (or anything CNC in general), so I have no personal reasons to care about the decision, however it may be.
But I do have a question: What is the GOAL behind a potential ban?
Is it to protect the members from the dangers or is it to protect the website itself?

Because frankly speaking, I am not sure if the first goal can be achieved with a ban. People who are into it can and ultimately always will try to fulfill their desire somewhere else instead if we ban it here. And that might make it even more dangerous, if there is nobody who can inform about the potential risks (especially for the potential blakcmailer, since the blackmailee probably knows exactly what can happen, whereas the blackmailer might be unaware of the legal problems).

Can everythign regarding blackmail be moved to it's own category with
(a) very clear information regarding the risks for both sides
(b) discussion and or potential first contact is allowed but NO action of blackmail itself, wheter making an actual agreement or sharing of any information about the blackmailee

Yeah I think that approach might be a good first step and then give it some run time and evaluate later to see if effective. The sticky about blackmail things discussed here and SSC vs RACK. Risks etc. is great to help warn the new ones. And between relocating any new posts who don’t post in right location to us members helping link bee people to it might help curb it.
I think the threat of an instant ban to anyone found violating consent will also maybe help prevent some of the direct predatory bullshit. Alot of times that is going to rely on the person to reach out either public or in private to admin as doc mentioned the few confirmed are def not the only ones happening.

 

[Randy Magnum]

In terms of naive newbies looking for a quick fix and landing on blackmail, as touched on above, the trouble is posting before understanding topics etc, which is true for a lot of problems around kink, not just blackmail.

Not sure if this site does it already but maybe a 'cooling off' period for new accounts could be good ?

Like you only have 'Read Access' for x amount of time before you can post or have contact with other people. Hopefully anyone interested in the site would use that time to read up on certain topics they are interested in so they know what to post later on.

 

[subzzzero]

In terms of naive newbies looking for a quick fix and landing on blackmail, as touched on above, the trouble is posting before understanding topics etc, which is true for a lot of problems around kink, not just blackmail.

Not sure if this site does it already but maybe a 'cooling off' period for new accounts could be good ?

Like you only have 'Read Access' for x amount of time before you can post or have contact with other people. Hopefully anyone interested in the site would use that time to read up on certain topics they are interested in so they know what to post later on.

I like the idea. Is it effective and traceable. If I were shallow and got a message that said you need to read x amount more posts to reply I could just click through several posts and move on instantly ?

Or are we talking more a human factor of vetting based on account activity ? Which would fall on admin to monitor and decide.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Not sure if this site does it already but maybe a 'cooling off' period for new accounts could be good ?

No this isn't the current policy, yes it's certainly something to look at. I will investigate available options, a manual process isn't feasible but something simply like X days before posting would mean they would have to lurk about and read before being able to post.
Possible issues, being able to dm other members rather than replying to ads, also adding information into their profile.

Currently I am working out the best way to implement the CNC specific forum and may simply drop it under the "All other kinks" heading for now.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

The new CNC forum is now up.

Only CNC

All discussion and requests for CNC based kink

www.kinktalk.com

I have moved a lot of content there already, discussion on what other ideas anyone has can continue in this thread.

 

[DeedeeDay]

The new CNC section looks good but I think there should be no question of the site even entraining people looking for non consenting play. If people want it they can state it in their profile likes/dislikes but if they wish to play with it they should go off site. But that is not to say we shouldn't discuss or post nonconsenting stories or details because from these we all learn and often a nonconsenting act can be pivotal to opening a discussion or getting advice.

When is something nonconsenting anyway, if someone has given their consent to be involved in nonconsenting activity is it that not consent, a mine field I think.

I do think though perhaps there should be a dedicated section whether in CNC or not that is clearly labeled Blackmail with stickies out lining the legal implications and safety precautions. I feel some people find their way here via a one word search and that will be "blackmail" not CNC. Just a thought.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

I feel some people find their way here via a one word search and that will be "blackmail" not CNC.

This is an excellent point, and I did deliberate on the section title for some time. The thing is search engines crawl the pages so the posts with blackmail in the title or even body will still come up in search results.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Perhaps putting that also in the members only section?

No, the idea is to make it so that anyone searching on google etc can find the posts in the correct CNC section.

As a couple of people have pointed out this is a very popular kink and it's not just going to go away so the best we can here is try and educate newbies about the dangers.

 

[subdream]

I had two rounds of "blackmail" and I had much fun. The first round was a blast, the second round I had to use my safeword. No harm was done, but I had precautions that made the blackmail more secure. The blackmailer had no access to the pictures at all - only to the option to expose me to my parents.

It takes a lot of fun away from the blackmailer role. But it is also more secure for them as well.

 

[MTaylor]

...something simply like X days before posting would mean they would have to lurk about and read before being able to post.
Possible issues, being able to dm other members rather than replying to ads, also adding information into their profile. ...

One concern about the cooldown period is whether that will impact people who do their lurking before making an account. I know I lurked for months (years?) here and on getDare before making an account. But that probably can just get chalked up as an unfortunate consequence for the mindful of living in a world with idiots in it.

Thinking about a cooldown does make me think about all of the "I joined kinktalk to spam my findom link to everyone" messages I get, and limiting those is a major point in favor of a cooldown period. (Although, perhaps the balance is to allow only a small number of messages, not none at all.)

Depending on how complex the backend of the site lets you get, a tiered system could be a good approach. Gain access to replying to a thread after two days, starting new threads after five days, posting pictures after 10, and so on.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

One concern about the cooldown period is whether that will impact people who do their lurking before making an account.

Right, I know this actually quite common since most things on the site are visible to guests it makes sense people lurk and read and only when ready join and post.

The options we have in the backend are based around what's called promotion, so new users sit in one user group and when they meet whatever criteria we want they are promoted to the next higher group level. The most basic form this can take is that all first posts (X number of posts) are moderated, that is must be approved before the post appears on the site.
This seems fine but will create a lot of additional work on the admin/mod side of things. For now I intend to see how the new CNC based section works out and revisit this again in a few weeks.

 

[DeedeeDay]

The findom spamming is a pain so anything to slow or stop that is good.
Would it help if blackmail was in a section only verified members can access?

 

[skylord]

I have gone through a couple blackmail games with the correct safety precautions and they have all been a blast.

Realistically, I would recommend banning findom blackmail as that is where the majority of the bad actors seem to be.