Is humiliation mental masochism?

[Doctor Pervert]

I have been pondering the idea that someone who "enjoys" being humiliated is actually a masochist who likes the mental or emotional pain of humiliation rather than physical pain.

For most people being embarrassed or humiliated is something they strive to avoid, we make sure we look good, don't leave our fly undone and generally try not to make an ass of ourselves around others. But it seems to me that those who crave humiliation do the opposite, they want to expose their flaws for ridicule, tempt fate by posting compromising photos of themselves online and inviting rude and derogatory comments about their appearance. Some go further by seeking instructions that will put them into awkward or embarrassing situations, writing obscene things on their bodies and displaying themselves in the most unflattering ways.
In this way I see a striking similarity between the physical pain masochist and the humiliation seeker, both are things the average person tries to avoid.

So what do you think, is this behavior simply mental masochism and does that mean that those that enjoy humiliating others (I'm taking the kinky context here) are mental sadists?

 

[Humili8edDiaperGirl]

Ok, so I am a massochist. I love pain. I also love humiliation. To me humiliation is a way to stimulate my brain in ways pain just can't. But humiliation enduces the same sexual turn on that pain does for me. I have cum from pain and no sexual stimulation in the past. I have also cum just from verbal humiliation and degredation.

So yes for me humiliation is definitely a form of mental masochism!

 

[turtlefly]

I feel the same way as the poster above, but unlike her, pain doesn't turn me on. In fact pain turns me off. I wouldn't consider myself a masochist. Mental and verbal humiliation has a very sexual effect on me though and manages to turn me on in a way that's different than most things.

 

[nina]

Great question Doc, thanks for making this thread and causing me to think about this topic, took me a few days before I could make up my mind on the answer..lol

I would disagree based on my limited experience and observations, and following are my reasons supporting my views.

When a masochist is hit, the physical pain caused is the same as the physical pain that would be caused in case they were to be hit in a non consensual situation. Just the release of endorphins and the mindset of liking the pain seems to induce pleasure. In fact this could be the actual case of mental masochism as the concept/perception itself of liking pain is mental or in the mind, the physical pain is absolute.

However humiliation is something I associate with intimacy or a sense of belonging, the thought of being subjugated, playing with insecurities (maybe in positive manner) etc. The reasons can be as subjective and varied as the people liking it. This is also a mental state like masochism, however I feel it doesn't hurt in a real way when it is a mutual kink as it would have hurt if the aggressor would have intended to non consensually verbally abuse or humiliate or cause emotional pain to someone. Real emotional pain shatters people but subs with this kink get turned on and do not break down due to practice of this kink.

While dictionaries may disagree with me (I derive meaning of the word from the root word maso meaning pain alone and believe embarrassment etc are distinct emotions/feelings from pain), I wouldn't call humiliation when practiced as a consensual kink (often with people they know/trust) and done with the objective of humiliating/embarrassing/degrading (and not cause real mental agony) to derive some kind of pleasure, a case of mental masochism.

To clarify both in the kinky sense are done with the objective to get pleasure, however unlike in the case of physical pain, humiliation is not equivalent to real mental pain/hurt but generally done to induce other emotions (like intimacy, subjugation, submission, reclaiming insecurities etc) as mentioned above

Finally my question to mental sadists, when you verbally humiliate someone saying "You unworthy slut" etc do you actually in real life sense believe they are a worthless person and relish that fact in having shown them their/that place and caused them real mental distress? If yes then you may be a mental sadist outside the consensual kink world as they indeed exist (eg. bullies). However just like masochism, sadism as I know it is a mental concept in itself even when relating to causing physical pain like elaborated above.

Disclaimer : I respect contrary views and understand those with greater experience may disagree or reason differently. My answer merely lays out my views on the topic based on my current level of experience.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

I get what you're saying here but I'm not sure the distinction is that simple. The fact that many of the humiliating situations or tasks induce the same physical response, blushing, avoiding eye contact, etc in the victim as they would to anyone in a regular context suggest that they experience it as if was real mental distress, or at least mental discomfort.
To me the critical difference is that this is consensual and that they "enjoy" feeling that distress.
I certainly agree there is a point where this could easily tip into actually cruelty (bullying) however that same tipping point exists with physical pain play also. In this respect masochists will often describe "good pain" and "bad pain" so perhaps a similar concept applies with "good humiliation" and "bad humiliation"?
Ultimately most of BDSM is a mental thing anyway, getting into the correct headspace, controlling or being controlled, it can be a most exquisite mind game indeed...

 

[nina]

I get what you're saying here but I'm not sure the distinction is that simple. The fact that many of the humiliating situations or tasks induce the same physical response, blushing, avoiding eye contact, etc in the victim as they would to anyone in a regular context suggest that they experience it as if was real mental distress, or at least mental discomfort.

Thank you Doc for sharing your insights, I always like to get your perspective as it increases my understanding of things.

I agree with your point here and to try and hit the middle ground somewhere wrt to my understanding I would say I am interpreting the word masochism in terms of a specific feeling only which is "pain" and the other kind of emotional feeling humiliation is what I categorise as a distinct emotion than pain and thus my definition of masochism excludes the emotion humiliation. It is also possible that many play scenarios/tasks involve both pain and humiliation simultaneously. So, the end response may be similar but the reason why the sub feels (triggers) the response is very distinct, it is endorphins in one case and a feeling of subjugation in the other case imo. Again these overlap and I agree the line of distinction is not that simple. But having said that I feel the distinction is clearer in the minds of the receiver than the giver like other subs above have agreed that humiliation ticks them in a way different than pain does. The Dom only interprets the output but the sub feels the process.

The other small distinction would be I believe it does not cause the victim the same level of mental distress as a situation outside kinks would. The kinky humiliation is indeed a controlled environment with mostly predetermined conditions and mentally prepared subjects in contrast to the real world in that sense imo. While the same controlled environment may exist in physical pain scenario also, I draw a distinction in the difference in objective (actually physically hurt vs mentally subjugate rather than cause real distress) and intensity (less variation in levels of physical pain vs kinky emotional hurt is way milder than real hurt) in real vs kinky situations wrt to both kinks (physical pain and humiliation respectively).

The thought underlying my stance is that those who wish to be emotionally broken in the kinky sense relish in the fact that the dominant has the power to do so to them and can fix them back, in the real world there is no such hope in the absence of such a trustworthy person thus I do not believe anyone wishes to feel emotionally broken for real the way they might want to be physically hurt (which is relatively easy to heal and often less dependent on others support).

Anyways given my limited experience I understand I may still be a little confused on my stance or may change it with experience..lol

 

[J91]

I've found this post really interesting and thought I would offer an another perspective on humiliation and masochism from the point of view of a submissive who, in small doses, enjoys both.

I agree with Nina's point that humiliation often induces feelings of subjugation in the submissive, and it doesn't necessarily directly relate to feelings of pleasure. Bearing in mind that humiliation is often conducted within the confines of limits by prior arrangement and (you would hope) extensive discussion, it would suggest that actually the submissive is expecting humiliation and therefore the pleasure comes from feelings of domination and subjugation associated with the humiliation. As rightly mentioned, there aren't many submissives who would actually believe what they are being told, yet it might make them squirmy and blushy - again, I associate this feeling with subjugation. With regards to what Doc said, actually in my experience, humiliation hasn't caused me any real mental distress previously but it has always been inside my comfort zone, and I have been safe in the knowledge that my Domme doesn't believe the words and is only trying to exert dominance over me. What would my reaction be if I was pushed out this comfort zone? Well, actually I had someone who did try and what she tried was in my limits, so I called her up on it.

On the other hand, looking at masochism, I have been pushed out my limits for physical pain and I was able to handle it. Why? Well I'm not one of those people who gain actual physical pleasure from pain, but light pain gets my stimulation going a bit more and more moderate pain induces the same feelings of subjugation that humiliation does. Will I ever be able to orgasm from just pain? I very much doubt it, but I know that some people do. For this reason, I'm inclined to say that for me, pain is more closely linked with humiliation. However, for others, it may be that they are in a sense addicted to actual physical pain caused to them, and humiliation is another interpretation of this pain...

Not sure if that makes sense, but essentially I do think it depends on the sub and the dynamic between an individual couple.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

These last few replies are fascinating as in many ways they reinforce my original idea that enduring the unpleasantness of humiliation was/is more a sign of subjugation to them. But it seems the landscape of this topic is wider than I first imagined and I agree that the individual D/s dynamic plays a huge part in how this actually works.
There are obviously those who find humiliation a uniquely satisfying kink in it's own right but it seems to me now that my description of mental masochism is probably more an analogy than truly descriptive.

 

[nina]

Hearing others perspectives I agree with Doc that the landscape of this topic is wider than I imagined too. I also agree with J91 that how individuals relate pain with humiliation is subjective and depends on them and the dynamic and thanks for enlightening us with a different perspective. However, I would just add a little about my own masochism to throw some more light on why at least for me, I do not link pain with humiliation.

Physical Pain can't cause me to orgasm alone though there are specific types of physical pain in BDSM that may make me wet and I do not have masochistic tendencies towards all types of physical pain (for eg. I hate bleeding). However my masochistic tendencies are way older and actually predates me exploring/understanding my sexuality (I agree I was quite naive in this area too), let alone BDSM which I explored much later. To add perspective, this is when I have had a sheltered upbringing and never been hit/abused or witnessed any such thing ever, nor have I even remotely ever suffered from low self esteem in this context.

In hindsight I have realised my masochism seems to be basically a stress busting (more thoughtful and aware you are, more the stress contrary to ignorance is bliss..lol) tool (dark I agree, however in control as my intention is never self harm but just pleasure) for me and that's what endorphins actually do (natural painkiller with feel good effect). A very similar example is weights/strength training in the gym, releases endorphins and busts stress imo. And I feel BDSM and certain physical pains that I like (impact play or tit pain) have actually helped me harness my masochistic tendencies positively by diverting them in the sexual direction. If this is escapism or a coping mechanism - I do not know.

Finally I agree in a strong D/s dynamic I may also enjoy physical pain in the sense of feeling subjugated, however I am equally capable of bottoming without any subby mindset for a physical pain session unlike humiliation where D/s is a prerequisite for me. Thus I personally do not link physical pain and humiliation so deeply but both may coexist in certain scenarios in the kinky context. Also I do not call mental pain -> humiliation and maintain that they seem to me two distinct emotions where mental pain (something with the potential of causing sadness/heartache etc imo) is something way harsher and not generally explored within the realms of consensual kink imo.

 

[J91]

Very interesting posts and a few things have been mulling over my mind since reading them - things that maybe I hadn't made a connection to before thinking about it more deeply.

The point Nina made about masochism predating exploring sexuality is extremely interesting, and actually yes it does apply in my context to a certain extent. Without going into too much detail in a public forum, I can definitely see a connection which I will take away from this and explore in further depth. An awareness of that connection will most definitely shed light on my own emotional state, should I decide to sub again.

Having said that, in my own history, I know definitely that feelings of submission, subjugation and humiliation were most definitely there in my mind throughout childhood, and that is my own landscape of submission. I agree with Docs point - mental masochism is more of an analogy, but clearly, as I mentioned, individuals relate in different ways. Just to add Nina, I most definitely have not experienced real mental pain at the hand of a Dominant and I can't imagine it's something that is common in a consensual relationship.

I've found that my thoughts on some of these topics do tend to change and develop as I learn more with each D/s interaction that I have. Even so, it's a very interesting topic