Kinks vs Ethics | Where does one draw the line?

[nina]

Kink is often seen as a healthy way to address those emotional needs that remain unexpressed within the boundaries of the civil society. At times, it involves aspects normally considered taboo by many; rape play, (extreme) subjugation/degradation of females being exponentially more common than for other genders, race play, edgeplay, ddlg, forced play etc to name a few. A lot of it is inspired by histories, cultures, stereotypes and even crimes which have often not been SSC (Safe, sane and consensual) to say the least. Does the right to free expression then immune us from having ethical responsibilities or rationalize becoming desensitized towards these crimes against humanity, particularly the ones that still exist in the modern world?

Just like the real life influences our kink preferences, doesn't kink also creep into our real life thought processes or behaviours to some small extent? In practising or publicizing such kinks, are we giving our subtle acceptance to these ideas irl and embedding it systematically thus eroding the collective conscience? Do we only fantasize about the animal instincts of such plays not understanding the scale of actual emotional sufferings of such victims of acts that we take inspiration from? Or do we draw the line only selectively to issues that are personal to us or to which we can relate to in someway and alienate the rest? Is it worth a discussion in the kink world, or is everything allowed in the name of FANTASY!

 

[Sado]

Fantasy should have no limits or constraints. Take away our Thoughts & fantasies and we are doomed.

 

[gbdare]

I think first of all there needs to be a distinction made between fantasy in mentally healthy individuals and fantasy in those who are not mentally healthy. For example, a rape fantasy being played out by a healthy, sane couple who are motivated by their mutual arousal associated with power and control (and lack thereof) and who are concerned with protecting the safety and well-being of each other is very different from the rape fantasy of a sociopath. I think that mentally healthy people generally understand that the right to expression does not supercede the ethical responsibilities involved in kink. Unfortunately, people who have certain mental health issues may not. While I think that communication and discussion of ethical responsibilities is still important within the greater kink community, I'm afraid such discussion is probably not very impactful on those who would tend to ignore such responsibilities and who tend to create the majority of problems.

 

[andrei]

Fantasy is food for your brain. It's just bad for someone to forget to make a difference between fantasy and reality. That's why we for example talk about rape-roleplay or rape-fantasy and not refer to actual rape.

I believe people around here are smart enough to make this difference.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Great topic @nina!

This is one that interests me greatly as I see a lot of things within the acceptable kink world that are not acceptable and even abhorrent in the wider community. First lets just reiterate @nina's point about SSC, the all important, Safe, Sane, Consensual. Implicit within this doctrine is the concept that nothing is done in malice so from the outset kinky games are entered into willingly by all involved.

I guess the big question I have in all this is, as @nina says where do you draw the line or is anything on the table as long its agreed to and used as roleplay? Using the rape example is a good one to start with, obviously the point here is that actual rape is an abhorrent crime against anyone but for now lets stick to how it applies to women.
Along with the rape play is the "consensual non-consensual" aspect a lot also seem to enjoy, which in its broadest sense is like giving away your consent which is of course impossible in reality but thats the idea.
Personally I have found this to be really common in female subs, rape, abduction and various other "abuse" seems to crop up at least half the time maybe more and mostly these are sensible, sane, often staunch feminist ladies who enjoy these things. Why? Why is something that in reality is horrific and abhorrent accepted as a kinky game so eagerly? I gave up looking for an answer to that myself as I really don't believe the predominant and overly simplistic views about it being a "more natural" or primal thing for women to want to be the lesser to males. Its a lot more complicated than that.
Now with this in mind if we look again at the question posed, with this being such a commonly accepted kink what else that is awful and abhorrent is acceptable when used in the kink world? What, if anything is going too far?

Some examples I've been thinking of for instance;

• Scenes involving costume play as Nazi's torturing captured females (esp now given the far right extremists etc)
• Daddy daughter, Mother son scenes, (as related to pedophilia and/or incest)
• The use of actual, real torture methods either historic of contemporary
• Using religious or sacred themes such as nuns, priests, etc
• Hanging style breath play

So these are just a few to think about, remember this isn't about awful stuff you may have heard of that isn't consensual its only things that are done consensually but are based on what in the real world is not acceptable.

For me that is the core of this question I guess, how do YOU reconcile ethically something you abhor into a game you love to play?

On my part I feel that as long as you play SSC there are no limits to what you do in private, its your business and your fantasies requires no justification to anyone. Why our brains choose to work this way is mysterious and over analyzing it is pointless. To me its a bit like saying, "why do you enjoy beer", there isn't really a logical answer other than its enjoyable. Its not a why, its just how it is.

 

[piesocial]

I think we're living in an era where any weird thing you can imagine is just about as permitted as it will ever be. At some stage the treatment of mental illnesses will become mainstream again and a lot of taboo ideas including things like the urge to be naked in public places will be addressed.

Knowing this isn't popular to say but I'm just saying. I'm not trying to single out any one kink or interest a lot of passes are being given out right now and I think it's for a limited time.

 

[nina]

It's nice to hear everyone's thoughts on the topic irrespective of whether they agree or not.

I think that mentally healthy people generally understand that the right to expression does not supercede the ethical responsibilities involved in kink. Unfortunately, people who have certain mental health issues may not.

Some great points made and I agree with your distinction and I think it is easy to make that distinction in the extreme cases but for most people there are also grey areas where there is no clear yes or no answer for whether one is mentally healthy or not.

I think we're living in an era where any weird thing you can imagine is just about as permitted as it will ever be. At some stage the treatment of mental illnesses will become mainstream again and a lot of taboo ideas including things like the urge to be naked in public places will be addressed.

That's a good point wrt extreme kinks. I also think a lot of people use kinks as escapism etc and while there's nothing wrong, it's not an alternative to fixing things or seeking (medical or otherwise) help if required.

I guess the big question I have in all this is, as @nina says where do you draw the line or is anything on the table as long its agreed to and used as roleplay?

thanks, yes that is indeed one of the aspects that I wanted to touch in this thread as this topic is very broad and open ended. Is anything on the table if all agree and if not then where do you draw your personal line of an ethical "No" wrt to the more "questionable" kinks.

Why? Why is something that in reality is horrific and abhorrent accepted as a kinky game so eagerly? I gave up looking for an answer to that myself as I really don't believe the predominant and overly simplistic views about it being a "more natural" or primal thing for women to want to be the lesser to males. Its a lot more complicated than that.

I absolutely agree that the answer is lot more complicated than the "more natural" excuse, it could also be history or social conditioning etc and ofcourse reasons cannot be generalised either

• Scenes involving costume play as Nazi's torturing captured females (esp now given the far right extremists etc)
• Daddy daughter, Mother son scenes, (as related to pedophilia and/or incest)
• The use of actual, real torture methods either historic of contemporary
• Using religious or sacred themes such as nuns, priests, etc
• Hanging style breath play

Those are great examples of ethical dilemma wrt kinks

On my part I feel that as long as you play SSC there are no limits to what you do in private, its your business and your fantasies requires no justification to anyone. Why our brains choose to work this way is mysterious and over analyzing it is pointless. To me its a bit like saying, "why do you enjoy beer", there isn't really a logical answer other than its enjoyable. Its not a why, its just how it is.

At an individual level I agree adults should have that freedom to judge and decide for themselves as long as its SSC, but this is where the other aspect I wanted to address in this thread comes into picture which I will elaborate on in my next post for ease of reading.

 

[nina]

So the second aspect I wanted to discuss about was from where we could have gotten these fantasies and why our ethical responsibilities aren't limited to our individual informed choices but also extend to how we influence the greater community. Let's be clear we are not talking about general fantasies with so called 'moral' issues that are against some norms, like say cheating etc. We are talking about extreme fantasies, which wouldn't have been safe or humane or fair if it were a reality and not a fantasy

It's difficult for me to explain and I may not be correct but I still think my points have at least some merit if one thinks unconventionally and with an open mind.

Most of us aren't born with the entire spectrum of specific kinks and fantasies and we actually develop them over time, how many of us have fantasy scenes set up in the planet Mars, not many..lol, it's because we tend to take reference points from things we've already seen, experienced or are familiar with, it can also root from deep emotional issues we have had or seen other people go through. Popular culture or shared values can also impact us in either way - good or bad. A lot of the times it is based on our biased or uninformed perceptions, like say when we have a rape fantasy, we are focussing on the (consensual) non consent or "made/forced to do" emotion but we fail to capture the other traumatic aspects of the same experience and had we thought of that reference point holistically (or actually read about such cases rather than say, seen a porn roleplay) we might not have had that fantasy at least to that extreme level which can also validate some guys to think most women want to be dominated or overpowered or overridden etc. This is just an example and there are many more

And while kinks are something personal for everyone, we cannot deny that in this connected world, certain kinks become more popular over time which is also reflected in the increased content on them online - via sites, blogs, forums, porn etc and then people often newcomers get influenced and again develop them further and with time kinks as a whole seem to have become more and more desensitised or brutal and while extreme content was always available, it was never this widespread. And I think the downside is when this slowly creeps into mainstream within the kink society, these kink ideas somewhat get acceptability subconsciously at the back of our minds, and so what started as a harmless kink can end up into an accepted stereotype collectively over time. A good but light example is the bimbofication kink, say a newbie young girl with low self esteem is exposed to an unfair share of online predators saying they can fix her and the plethora of online content available on 'worthless female' theme only confirms that she needs to be treated badly by a bunch of losers..lol, when in reality she needed to address those issues constructively.

The greater point here is no longer is the kink community a small exclusive one on the fringes of the vanilla world, and the same kinksters are a big chunk of the vanilla world out of which many are not that well informed or have sound judgement, but nevertheless get influenced by the developments of the kink world. In the race of more and more brutal and risky and extreme and abusive and even clickbaity content I hope we do not alter the thresholds of the acceptability levels of the civil, free and equal society forever for the worse and if that happens it is the 'vulnerable' sections that will be affected the most. A good time adjusted analogy (but with lesser repercussions) for this is how the music industry has gone downhill from being classy to ________ (you fill the adjective) overtime.

Again, these are just my thoughts at the moment and its alright if people disagree with me.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

A good but light example is the bimbofication kink, say a newbie young girl with low self esteem is exposed to an unfair share of online predators saying they can fix her and the plethora of online content available on 'worthless female' theme only confirms that she needs to be treated badly by a bunch of losers..lol, when in reality she needed to address those issues constructively.

This is something that I have had concerns about for a long time, the effect of the more extreme (but often acted) kink porn on newbies entering the scene. In general I think people are a lot more savvy than this and will be skeptical however there will always be some vulnerable individuals who get convinced by the sheer volume of this kind of stuff and decide that they need to conform to it.
This happens on both side, newbie subs and newbie doms, using acted porn as a guide to kink and if they collide it can be a dangerous combination. There are as you mention a lot of unethical predatory dom types as well who take advantage of this effect and I guess this is where the ethics of kink really does come into play because this really isn't SSC, consent given in the ignorance of all the facts isn't really consent at all.