What does topping from the bottom mean?

[nina]

Topping from the bottom is a phrase I have both heard a lot as well as used on some occasions too, however I have seen there is a lot of ambiguity on how different people use [or misuse?..lol] the term. Personally I have always used it when a sub seems to be manipulating whether intentionally or not but I have also seen wannabe dominants use it as an excuse to not give the sub a say in things! So I thought I will gather some opinions of kinktalkers on this topic here.

So, what are your thoughts on topping from the bottom? Does it exist? Can you enlighten us with some practical examples on what it is and what it is not from your perspective?

 

[kaylessa]

I guess it depends strongly on the people involved. What some people might call a bratty sub might feel like "topping from the bottom" for others. On the other hand some dominants think that a submissive shouldn't have any say in what happens (which is a view I strongly dislike myself).

My personal view on it is: the submissive is supposed to setup the playing field, it's borders and what's on the inside. The submissive is also the final arbiter on which practice violates a limit and should use safewords to stop the dominant from violation. Any other decisions are supposed to be the Dominants responsibility.

Some submissives supply a broad playing field by only having very few limits, others might have actually only one kink which they want to experience. Talking (in person or virtually) is the only way to see if the playing field the submissive provides is one the Dominant wants to play in.

It's only a very small difference between encountering a new limit (and telling the Dominant) and topping from the bottom. The latter happens (in my perspective) when a submissive insists on rejecting an order which is well within the playing field (usually by using the safeword or - in case of online play - by ignoring the Dominant).

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Great topic, thanks @nina!
I see this a lot of with newbies, and often in their first posts. The most common way it manifests is as an overly elaborate description of likes. Now there is a valid reason why newbies may do this and that's because its common advice when you are new to add these likes/dislikes.
Thats fine if it a simple list of kinks but when it becomes things like "I like being given instructions on how to use my vibrator, but only external, not inserted and I am in denial so I can't cum" it kinda limits what a Dom's role is in this.

The other common topping from the bottom is when you read "requests" written in this style.
"Give me things to do to my tits, but it can't include...."
For a start its a demand not a request and second it goes on to tell the Dom what you won't do rather than what you will.

A less common but relevant topping from the bottom occurs with subs once they become accustom to a Dom when they try to manipulate the direction of play to be something they prefer rather than only trying to please the Dom. This happens because the sub learns the typical way a Dom may progress a play session and if they know X is coming next but prefer Y they may change their behavior to get the result they want. A good example is someone who actively likes to be paddled or caned deliberately failing a task to be punished rather than following the path to reward.

It can be confusing and isn't always obvious but it is real and does happen.

 

[kaylessa]

A good example is someone who actively likes to be paddled or caned deliberately failing a task to be punished rather than following the path to reward.

Some would call this "bratty sub" which might be a like of some Dominants. I don't like bratty subs myself, but I can see why some might like it.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Some would call this "bratty sub" which might be a like of some Dominants. I don't like bratty subs myself, but I can see why some might like it.

Possibly my example was little confusing because it could be seen that way although generally bratty subs are defined and identified as such so this example wouldn't be against the expected flow.
Maybe a different example would be a situation that leads to play with boobs or vagina, the sub prefers vaginal play so can manipulate things so thats what she always gets. That said a clever Dom would soon cotton on and change his rules so this choice is much harder to achieve.

 

[nina]

Some very good examples of topping from the bottom @droptokon and nicely explained @kaylessa

Maybe a different example would be a situation that leads to play with boobs or vagina, the sub prefers vaginal play so can manipulate things so thats what she always gets. That said a clever Dom would soon cotton on and change his rules so this choice is much harder to achieve.

I agree, just like subs get accustomed to the Dom's ways and can understand how to steer away, even Dom's after domming a sub for a while can predict how the sub would react in different situations and the sub's preferences and potential demands or strategies and whether to give in to them or follow a different course of action.

 

[Magnetic]

If you can successfully top from the bottom, it means that your top is not worth his weight in shit and you will eventually dump him (unless he proves yo you that that was an isolated incident).

Most girls try it... To test their top's quality as a leader. When they succeed, they get grumpy for a while and then try it again hopping to fail this time.

That is why girls are famous for requesting something from guys, and then getting all grumpy when the guy did exactly what they requested. Even though they hate to admit it, almost all girls are bottoms, all guys are supposed to be top. When guys do not take on this role, for whatever reason, they eventually get dumped like a used tampon...

That´ s also why most guys who are subs end up being sissies... They simply cannot find girls who will dom them, not for long at least!

So, if a girl tries to boss them around, and they let them (in other words, if they get topped from the bottom by their girl), they WILL eventually get dumped, unless they got a very rare girl--because even most tomboys and f2m are bottoms at the very deep of their heart.

 

[kaylessa]

Even though they hate to admit it, almost all girls are bottoms, all guys are supposed to be top. When guys do not take on this role, for whatever reason, they eventually get dumped like a used tampon...

This statement seems so wrong to me. I'm sorry, but I can't even say how wrong that feels.

 

[sciencegal]

My experiences with topping from the bottom align with what @droptokon mentioned. Usually I find it manifests itself in overly specific requests, or steering play towards the action they want. The example I've encountered the most happens with submissive guys looking for female partners. They want a "mistress" to tell them how to play, but question and negotiate every action. In my experiences they have a script in mind and if the dominant deviates, the sub will try and steer things back to the script. One such encounter (long ago), I called the submissive out for the behavior, saying that if they had a script in mind just tell me so I don't have to keep coming up with new ideas until one sticks. This resulted in the sub saying there was no script, but that they weren't interested in what I was suggesting. Frustrating to say the least.

I think in my mind the difference between being bratty and topping from the bottom is consent and expectations. If you are a dominant with a bratty sub, you are more than likely prepared for your submissive to "misbehave" to get the spanking they desire, it's honestly part of your play. The misdeed is done in the name of play and in good faith, and therefore in my opinion is not topping from the bottom. Like others mentioned, the dominant often picks up on the behavior and modifies the outcome of the misdeed to go from the desired punishment to an actual one (e.g., the sub was expecting a spanking and instead had to eat a healthy meal). I've encountered bratty subs before, and knowing they were bratty I never viewed things like that as topping from the bottom; it was an accepted behavior based on the parameters of the relationship.

In the case of overly specific instruction requests, the intention behind it is not good-natured, but rather selfish. Regardless of how the dom/sub relationship is (bratty, trying to please the dominant, etc), when a sub makes hyper specific request without stating their intentions, I find that crosses the line. If you have hyper specific requests, like you only want to explore hot wax, informing your dominant ahead of time saves them a lot of wasted effort and frustration. It's okay to only like one particular kink as long as all parties involved are aware of that. For example, I thoroughly enjoy anal, but I do not like fucking my ass myself (personal reasons). When I explain my likes to someone I inform that that anal is a like, but that if ass fucking can be avoided I'd appreciate it. For me this establishes the boundary from the beginning so the dominant knows right away not to bother with something I don't like unless it is essential to the play session. I don't want to put them in a situation where they have crafted a wonderful task around fucking my ass only for me to say "no", especially because anal is a like (and in theory a task like that would not violate my established limits). Again, this goes back to consent and expectations.

I disagree with @Magnetic' s point though. I do not feel that all woman fit the submissive role and all men the dominant. That is determined individually based on a myriad of contributing factors. Regardless, if you can successfully top from the bottom to me it means your top is trying to make things fun for you as well, hence why they are willing to compromise and find alternatives in play. I think @Magnetic is referring to people who sort of dabble with the dom/sub roles, more of role-players than actual participants. They have a set goal for the play session because it's just that, play. They take on the role of the sub for the play but that is not necessarily their identity. Being a sub in that case is essentially a kink, something they choose to explore when the mood strikes. That's probably why in most cases the relationships don't last. It was never meant to. Being up front about your expectations or desires with your partner can help those who are serious about the lifestyle avoid connecting with those who just want a quick session to masturbate to.

Each person has their own description of what a dominant or submissive should be, but in the end all parties involved need to have a say in the play (this can even be giving up control completely to the dominant as that is agreed upon by both parties, or simply taking on the "dom" and "sub" role for a quick session).

 

[Doctor Pervert]

If you can successfully top from the bottom, it means that your top is not worth his weight in shit and you will eventually dump him (unless he proves yo you that that was an isolated incident).

Most girls try it... To test their top's quality as a leader. When they succeed, they get grumpy for a while and then try it again hopping to fail this time.

That is why girls are famous for requesting something from guys, and then getting all grumpy when the guy did exactly what they requested. Even though they hate to admit it, almost all girls are bottoms, all guys are supposed to be top. When guys do not take on this role, for whatever reason, they eventually get dumped like a used tampon...

That´ s also why most guys who are subs end up being sissies... They simply cannot find girls who will dom them, not for long at least!

So, if a girl tries to boss them around, and they let them (in other words, if they get topped from the bottom by their girl), they WILL eventually get dumped, unless they got a very rare girl--because even most tomboys and f2m are bottoms at the very deep of their heart.

Wow I don't know what reality you live in but it must be one of those parallel universes.

I see pretty much the exact opposite, many, many, many more guys are subs than girls and I'm not just talking about here in Kink Talk this is out in the "real world". I have been a member at quite a few BDSM clubs both here and in the US and over my almost 30 years of kinky play this holds true.
Some of the hardest dominants I've known are ladies and certainly the meekest, most submissive types have been guys.

You also seem to miss the point about topping from the bottom, its not the overt contest of a bratty sub being "tamed" by her Dom. As mentioned by @sciencegal that is a different dynamic to the more common D/s relationships.
This is referring to actual subs (bottoms) manipulating or steering play toward their preferred outcomes and overriding the Dom (top). Its not a battle of wills and the bottom wants to be the bottom they are just trying to engage the play they prefer.

 

[Magnetic]

First things first...Let me congratulate all of you for your replying to me and not ignoring me or kicking me out. You might be wrong (or you might not), but congratulations.

This statement seems so wrong to me. I'm sorry, but I can't even say how wrong that feels.

No, I am sorry that you relied on feelings instead of reasoning.

I disagree with @Magnetic' s point though. I do not feel that all woman fit the submissive role and all men the dominant. That is determined individually based on a myriad of contributing factors. Regardless, if you can successfully top from the bottom to me it means your top is trying to make things fun for you as well, hence why they are willing to compromise and find alternatives in play. I think @Magnetic is referring to people who sort of dabble with the dom/sub roles, more of role-players than actual participants. They have a set goal for the play session because it's just that, play. They take on the role of the sub for the play but that is not necessarily their identity. Being a sub in that case is essentially a kink, something they choose to explore when the mood strikes. That's probably why in most cases the relationships don't last. It was never meant to. Being up front about your expectations or desires with your partner can help those who are serious about the lifestyle avoid connecting with those who just want a quick session to masturbate to.

Each person has their own description of what a dominant or submissive should be, but in the end all parties involved need to have a say in the play (this can even be giving up control completely to the dominant as that is agreed upon by both parties, or simply taking on the "dom" and "sub" role for a quick session).

I did not said that all men fit in the dominant role. It is one of the greatest disgraces of the current times that society teaches men to be submissive from the crib. Those men find no women, or find real bad quality women (fat, ugly, bad tempered, etc)... Even those women tend to use the beta guy as a placeholder while an alpha comes along...

Why do you think there is so much infidelity around? This is the reason.

I see pretty much the exact opposite, many, many, many more guys are subs than girls and I'm not just talking about here in Kink Talk this is out in the "real world". I have been a member at quite a few BDSM clubs both here and in the US and over my almost 30 years of kinky play this holds true.
Some of the hardest dominants I've known are ladies and certainly the meekest, most submissive types have been guys.

No, it is the way I have said it.

First of all, I am talking about the general population. Not just the kink community.

Second, I firmly believe that 100% of people are into BDSM... Even though they won't admit it., or they might even be horrorified at the thought or mention of BDSM. And, a great percentage of those 100% are into BDSM in the way I exposed.

Third, it is true that most men are trained to be submissive nice guys by society, instead of strong alphas. That is just what they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. It is true that most women tend to be raised as a strong alpha girl by society and the feminism movement, and the fact that they ever leave the kitchen and the bedroom, butthat is once more just how they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. An strong alpha guy can turn even the most die hard feminist into a shaking pudding in his hand.

So, that is what I have said.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

First things first...Let me congratulate all of you for your replying to me and not ignoring me or kicking me out. You might be wrong (or you might not), but congratulations.

This is what discussion forums are for, everyone has their own opinions and ideas. Discussions such as this one allow everyone to express those opinions and ideas, it also allows others to better understand how and what you think which is important.
The more astute members will take the time to read things like this and then make decisions based on who they agree or disagree with and ultimately who they choose to associate with.

 

[kaylessa]

No, I am sorry that you relied on feelings instead of reasoning.

It's all about feeling. The whole life is about feeling.

Why do you think there is so much infidelity around? This is the reason.

First I don't think infidelity raised at all. Awareness raised and thus infidelity is often exposed. Second punishments for being infidel have been reduced a lot.

Third, it is true that most men are trained to be submissive nice guys by society, instead of strong alphas. That is just what they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. It is true that most women tend to be raised as a strong alpha girl by society and the feminism movement, and the fact that they ever leave the kitchen and the bedroom, butthat is once more just how they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. An strong alpha guy can turn even the most die hard feminist into a shaking pudding in his hand.

I still have no words for this. Do you really think this is true?

So, that is what I have said.

And that doesn't make it any more true.

 

[Magnetic]

Third, it is true that most men are trained to be submissive nice guys by society, instead of strong alphas. That is just what they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. It is true that most women tend to be raised as a strong alpha girl by society and the feminism movement, and the fact that they ever leave the kitchen and the bedroom, butthat is once more just how they where raised to be, not what they naturally are. An strong alpha guy can turn even the most die hard feminist into a shaking pudding in his hand.

I still have no words for this. Do you really think this is true?

No, I don't think it is true. I know it is.

I have seen ample of evidence, both in my life and on Coach Correy Wayne's fully documented work, to confidently been able to say that. If you are interested in finding out about it, just YouTube him up.

 

[nina]

Regardless, if you can successfully top from the bottom to me it means your top is trying to make things fun for you as well, hence why they are willing to compromise and find alternatives in play.

I would only call topping from the bottom, if the Dominant isn't aware that the sub is having their way, otherwise I'll call it taking inputs from the sub to be able to make more informed decisions so the Dominant can achieve the desired outcome from the play etc.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

I would only call topping from the bottom, if the Dominant isn't aware that the sub is having their way, otherwise I'll call it taking inputs from the sub to be able to make more informed decisions so the Dominant can achieve the desired outcome from the play etc.

Not so sure about that, how about a scenario where the dominant is aware but allows the influence to continue anyway? I can see how this could happen with less experienced or insecure doms who either assume its what happens or don't want to upset their sub.
I would think that in these cases this is prime topping from the bottom as the sub is knowingly taking advantage of the situation.
There is definitely a place for feedback from sub to dom especially in online where you can't observe what is going on, my feeling is that it only becomes topping from the bottom when its no longer feedback but manipulation.

 

[nina]

Or it could also be that the Dominant is aware and in control and isn't scared of butting in but knows exactly how much to let them loose and when to pull the strings.

This example may be not that apt but it does help understand my point better. So recently I saw a young mother with a child [not more than 2 years old] shopping, so the child felt it was free and running wild, but I noticed his mother had her eyes on him every few seconds, if anything were to happen, the mom could immediately control the situation.

Similarly the sub is being allowed to play free only to the extent the Dom intends to, the Dom being aware is relevant, what the sub thinks about the Dominant having the knowledge or not doesn't matter, only insecure Doms would worry whether the sub is aware or not or how the sub perceives the situation, the bottom line is the Dom is in control and only what (s)he wants and to the extent (s)he wants happens

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Agreed, its not always clear cut to both sides for sure.
That perceived freedom such as your toddler example is a good analogy and an experienced, in control dominant may indeed include a range that a sub can explore simply to discover which path they will take.
I have used things such as this and will often include deliberate ambiguity as a test, will the sub stop and try to clarify or simply take their preferred route or even choose the path they think I would want?
This kind of mind game can be very illuminating especially in the early stages of getting to know a new sub.

 

[oddjobber]

i find it to be focused on more the subs pleasure..but the sub in a sense..manipulating the situation to get what they want.

example is a guy "talking" his partner into domming him..it not neccessarily the partners personailumty but they do it to please their partner.

thats the short version i guess.

 

[Chop13]

"This is referring to actual subs (bottoms) manipulating or steering play toward their preferred outcomes and overriding the Dom (top). Its not a battle of wills and the bottom wants to be the bottom they are just trying to engage the play they prefer."
pretty much sums up what i think "topping from the bottom"