Is it relatively easier to be a submissive?

[nina]

I understand that a (sub, Dom(me), switch) orientation is generally organic, things usually depend on individual dynamics and there can't be a linear comparison on which role is easier. However I, like many others couldn't help but notice that an overwhelming majority of kinksters seem to be submissives. The number of Dominants may even be lesser if you reduce it by the number of fakes, wannabes or those only looking for a quick thrill. I have added a poll to see if my assumption of subs outnumbering Dom(mes) is indeed true for this site.

So, I would like to hear from all fellow kinktalkers, what are your thoughts on this topic, have you noticed a similar trend of submissives far outnumbering the Dominants and what do you think the reasons are behind this. Also, which role do you identify with and do you think one is easier than other in your personal experiences or observations or is it just a natural choice? I am not so sure where I am heading but this is a fairly open ended discussion thread and you at least get a fair idea of what the discussion topic is.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Ohhh, great topic!
I have a theory about why dominants are less common than subs.
I just checked the system stats, there have been 9851 male and females register as Dominants out of just over 50000 members thats a pretty clear imbalance.

So what's my theory? Simple social conditioning.
For centuries people have been taught to respect authority, do as you're told, obey the rules, the laws and be a good citizen. This naturally leads to a population of basically submissive individuals who want to please their masters. Ok, maybe thats a bit harsh but you get the idea, its also basic biology, in all animal populations there are always alphas who naturally assume the top dog role and the rest of pack follows.

 

[J91]

I agree with Doc on this. It's completely normal and natural to want to please, speaking as an educator, it's the part of students that is most vital to tap into, but once they do have that feeling of 'I want to please you' then the rest falls into place. If we think about upbringing, most of us are conditioned to thrive on praise and to generally repeat the actions that result in that praise.

Coming from a D/s point of view, I do feel like the submissive has an advantage. Looking at an online relationship, who is actually benefiting from the arrangement? More often than not, the submissive gets the actual stimulation and attention. What does the Dominant get from the arrangement? Well I've not been on that side of the coin so maybe someone else can shed some light on that. What does an online Dominant get from the relationship?

For me personally, to be a proper Dominant carries a huge amount of responsibility and takes a lot of planning. On the other hand being a submissive just means following orders.

Having said that...it definitely depends on the dynamic, I've had one relationship where it was much harder, and that was probably due my Domme being less concerned about my pleasure as she was her own agenda. As much as I enjoyed that, it's most definitely a rarity and I'm not sure what the dynamic in other relationships would be.

So, to sum up after a lot of waffling...I think it really does depend on the individual dynamic and submissives are much more common due to our need in society to please, and the focus on submissives pleasure that comes from a lot of relationships.

 

[Master Vagrant]

For centuries people have been taught to respect authority, do as you're told, obey the rules, the laws and be a good citizen.

Yes that is very true, lots of countries still use old laws and tradition, where submission of masses is in hands of a few. And its just easier to follow orders. I would say its in genes, and its hard to get rid of that.

Coming from a D/s point of view, I do feel like the submissive has an advantage. Looking at an online relationship, who is actually benefiting from the arrangement? More often than not, the submissive gets the actual stimulation and attention. What does the Dominant get from the arrangement? Well I've not been on that side of the coin so maybe someone else can shed some light on that. What does an online Dominant get from the relationship?

I practice both, real and online and you are right, in online subs/slaves are in big advantage. We are now in 21st century, you can not hit a slave with a club and take it to your lair, or buy it on market (somewhere you still can, of course). Slaves are ones who pick their Masters, and possible owner must do (order) only what slave like. I will be harsh now, old fashioned, and say that i dont pick slaves who advertise like that, wants Master to be creative, and entertain his/her slave. I mean, check in dictionary what means Master and what means slave. Who need to serve who? Slave must to earn that in time, not to ask it from start. Now since i am male some females will not agree with me, but that is normal, everyone have their own opinion. Some dominant males will also have to say something about that, but again, its just good old discussion. Me being me causes lots of male slaves to ask me to be their owner, but i only work with natural born females.

Online relationship is based on mental side, and what i get as dominant is knowledge, or feeling, that some female person from other side of the world follow my orders, do what i want and that brings some satisfaction. I like to connect, i do talk a lot with a person who is with me at that moment, trying to make bond deeper than just normal M/s. Then i am trying to bring out true slave from that person, and it works really well. Of course, i am not a bad person, so i reward and rewards are from slaves like list.

And to sumarise, with ages comes wisdom and both sides knows what they want, how to get it or what they can offer and its so much easier to be sub/slave now, but also its so much more challenging and interesting for dominants to train someone for your needs and pleasure.

 

[Lilly131]

I think it depends although i have never been on the other side but i would say it depends on the person and what they find difficult vs interesting a fun. As far as a fair relationship and balancing wants and desires for both i think it is equally hard. Both should be making compromises for it to be fair but it can still be fun for both it just takes work on both parts. Which obviously is where communication comes in. Still i think more females are subs than doms and i do think that is related to social conditioning as females are generally raised to be more submissive than males. But also it is hard to tell between who is genuine and who just wants a bit of fun. Interesting topic though and possibly many right answers.

 

[puppetmaster]

I don't think one side is objectively easier across the board, but I know for me I would find it very difficult and unpleasant to be a submissive, and someone like my slave emma would find it much harder and more unpleasant to be in control of someone else.

Being in control of a slave gives me energy. It's similar to introversion or extroversion (where being alone gives an introvert energy and being with people drains them, while being with people gives an extrovert energy and being alone drains them).

This stuff always comes down to individual chemistry, and the dynamic between two people is always unique. I've had the experiences where I found being a dominant to specific person very draining for one reason or another, despite near-perfect obedience . If you find a sub/Dominant who makes you feel excited and energized, that's a keeper!

I think there is a misconception that being a sub is easier since you don't have to do anything except to listen, so a lot of people default to that even if it's not the right fit, but it becomes apparent quickly when someones heart isn't in it and they still very much want to control the situation, even if they won't admit it openly.

Being an effective dominant does require some level of long-term planning or a vision of what you want out of the relationship, which maybe a sub doesn't have to worry about as much, however the reality of it is much more of an "improv" than sticking to a pre-determined plan.

 

[camaikun]

I wouldn't say that all doms are alpha males as such. I like droptokon's theory that society has taught people to respect authority and as a result more people are submissive than dominant. I'm the type of person who probably wouldn't lead out of choice in an alpha capacity, but I do question authority and rules at every turn and from a philosophical standpoint have always criticized the status quo. This doesn't necessarily mean that I must be a dominant, but I digress.

Online at least, there is an imbalance of subs to doms from what I have seen. However, since many subs prefer for a dom to come to them first it might seem that there are more doms.
I also don't think that one side is "easier" overall. Some people find control easy, others find submission easy. A BDSM based relationship relies on a balancing act between the people involved in it. For some it might look like submission is harder as some "submissives" will get nervous, lose interest etc if told to do something by their dom. There is a definite mental and physical tax on both parties involved (especially during a harsh punishment) and a careful balance can help alleviate this tax to the point where it becomes normal life and something to be valued and enjoyed. Push too hard one way and the relationship can become strained and hard for both.

An interesting topic for sure.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Speaking from my most active to time in "real life" bdsm communities I have to say that the Doms and especially Dommes are completely outnumbered by submissives. There were a couple of regular dungeons I attended for several years and most of the Dommes kept several subs or slaves and probably half the male Doms I knew had at least a couple at any one time.
The fact was you really needed to be quite poly in your outlook or you would struggle to find anyone. I also found this helped the issue of kink matching a lot, while the chances of finding one sub who was into all your kinks was/is low by seeing a few, each with a different set of tastes you could cover much more of your interests.
In this regard I know there was lot of crossover and I knew of several instances of groups that kind of pooled themselves, usually this was 2 or 3 Doms with a group of 6 to 10 subs. There were the obvious dungeon meets where this sharing kind of spread even further but they also met in private a lot too.

Sorry slipping a bit off topic here, lol...

In terms of how difficult or otherwise it is to be a Dom I guess that depends a lot on your personality, and I don't mean the obvious being dominant thing, I'm talking more of the patience and organizational skills you need to manage not just your life but someone else's as well. This is where many newbie Doms come unstuck, they simply don't realise how much time and effort goes into the successful planning and monitoring of tasks and routines, however if this is part of your nature and you don't find it a chore then its easy.
So really I think if you follow what is most natural for you then its easiest to just be who and what you are.

 

[nina]

So what's my theory? Simple social conditioning.

That's a great theory, seems accurate.

It's completely normal and natural to want to please, speaking as an educator, it's the part of students that is most vital to tap into, but once they do have that feeling of 'I want to please you' then the rest falls into place. If we think about upbringing, most of us are conditioned to thrive on praise and to generally repeat the actions that result in that praise.

What does an online Dominant get from the relationship?

Well put J91, I think what you say here about tapping into an individuals need to please to help them grow as an individual is precisely what a Dominant does and gets pleasure from. For me it is the mental control and the influence I can have on an individual and maybe impact their life in some positive constructive way. In the most selfless way it is the ability to be a trustworthy friend, a guide that they look up to and a close confidant who makes them feel secure while they explore their journey as a submissive. In the most selfish way it is a confirmation of one's capability and belief in their own personality traits to be able to earn someone's deep submission willingly.

 

[nina]

I will be harsh now, old fashioned, and say that i dont pick slaves who advertise like that, wants Master to be creative, and entertain his/her slave.

While I always believe in open and effective communication and I have my own ways of implementing it as a Dominant, I wouldn't pick someone on the basis of such advertisement either. Your word may sound harsh and controversial to some but I understand the rational thought behind what you mean when you say that and kind of agree with you.

Adding to it my own two cents, I feel it also puts unnecessary burden of specific expectations and while I understand dominating each sub can be a different experience customised to complement that sub, however I also feel each Dominant has their own basic style of Dominance which is derived from their own personality traits and such specific (at the same time generalised) preconceived expectations in an ad give an impression that the Dominant is expected to fit a mould rather than freely explore their own style of Dominance. I feel these specific traits we want in a partner should be something observed or discussed in a preliminary phase with a specific potential partner rather than generalised in an ad. Again just my views, please don't be mean to me for expressing them.

And to sumarise, with ages comes wisdom and both sides knows what they want, how to get it or what they can offer and its so much easier to be sub/slave now, but also its so much more challenging and interesting for dominants to train someone for your needs and pleasure.

This is a fresh take, in this information age, kinksters are exposed to a lot of information, and while it makes things easier in terms of access of info, playmates, rights..lol etc it also makes it more challenging in an interesting way.

 

[nina]

This stuff always comes down to individual chemistry, and the dynamic between two people is always unique. I've had the experiences where I found being a dominant to specific person very draining for one reason or another, despite near-perfect obedience . If you find a sub/Dominant who makes you feel excited and energized, that's a keeper!

I think there is a misconception that being a sub is easier since you don't have to do anything except to listen, so a lot of people default to that even if it's not the right fit, but it becomes apparent quickly when someones heart isn't in it and they still very much want to control the situation, even if they won't admit it openly.

Those are some really valuable insights that are not so commonly talked about and thank you for sharing them here. Certain relationships can be draining not due to the act of submission or dominance seeming difficult but due to the partners not having adequate chemistry or not being really into each other with all their heart and soul.

In fact it can be more draining when it is one sided for eg. any good Dominant understands the emotional reliability of a submissive on them, and sometimes finds it hard to communicate about releasing a sub even if they do not have their heart in the relationship but want to give it a second chance. The situation could also be reverse where a sub realises incompatibilities but due to their sub mentality still keeps looking for reasons to believe in the Dom and drag the relationship. I feel we have an ethical responsibility to be honest in such situations to have any remote chance of a sustainable dynamic and this is where communication comes in like Lilly131 said

I think it depends although i have never been on the other side but i would say it depends on the person and what they find difficult vs interesting a fun. As far as a fair relationship and balancing wants and desires for both i think it is equally hard. Both should be making compromises for it to be fair but it can still be fun for both it just takes work on both parts. Which obviously is where communication comes in.

 

[nina]

I also don't think that one side is "easier" overall. Some people find control easy, others find submission easy. There is a definite mental and physical tax on both parties involved (especially during a harsh punishment) and a careful balance can help alleviate this tax to the point where it becomes normal life and something to be valued and enjoyed. Push too hard one way and the relationship can become strained and hard for both.

Being in control of a slave gives me energy. It's similar to introversion or extroversion (where being alone gives an introvert energy and being with people drains them, while being with people gives an extrovert energy and being alone drains them).

In terms of how difficult or otherwise it is to be a Dom I guess that depends a lot on your personality, and I don't mean the obvious being dominant thing, I'm talking more of the patience and organizational skills you need to manage not just your life but someone else's as well. This is where many newbie Doms come unstuck, they simply don't realise how much time and effort goes into the successful planning and monitoring of tasks and routines, however if this is part of your nature and you don't find it a chore then its easy.
So really I think if you follow what is most natural for you then its easiest to just be who and what you are.

Agree with you all and nicely summed up Doc, follow what is most natural to you otherwise it will seem like a chore. One more quality that is closely related to Dominance is (inclusive and humble) leadership and the best leaders are not those that we fear but those who win our hearts and would make us want to follow them (Note the similarity vis a vis imposed submission vs earned submission). Personally I derive a lot of my style of dominance from this trait however will not digress into this as it's a different topic.

 

[nina]

Some reasons why submissives are more common (in addition to being someone's organic choice)

1. Conditioning is a major factor like Doc said

2. I have also realised that just like there are wannabe Doms looking for quick thrill, there are fake subs too who just want get off instructions etc from someone and there are more fake subs than Doms as faking being a sub requires less effort vis a vis (self gratification) rewards..lol

3. Newbies to kinks often start as submissives for obvious reasons and some of them actually naturally progress to exploring their Dominant side once they have explored submission. But since, many people don't stick to exploring kinks for longer periods of time, their interests often fizzle out before they reach that stage.

Personal take on which is easier:

I agree with @J91 that Dominance often requires greater responsibility and planning however like Doc and some others said one's personality type and skill-set can compensate for it to not seem like a chore. On the other hand like others have mentioned, submission when taken seriously can actually be mentally (and physically) demanding on someone which can only be relieved by the right Dominant. So none is outrightly easier than the other.

We seem to have a consensus on the fact that what is easier is actually a subjective issue which boils down to individual personalities and their personal dynamics/relationships, however personally from my short stint at Domination, I have figured that Domination while not linearly comparable, but when done conscientiously does pose certain distinct challenges which many a times require being the bigger person with a more mature outlook and a more advanced skill-set than submission does. (Please note that I am still exploring domination at an early stage and do not attack me with pitchforks for my views pretty please). Following are some of my personal observations or a 1o1 on differences I noticed having explored both sides..lol (not an exhaustive list by any chance) to substantiate this outlook.

1. As a sub it is sometimes easy or alright (honestly something I have observed other subs do especially after the end of a dynamic) to point out/talk about the shortcomings of your Dom to others in a present or past relationship that fell short of their expectations (and I am not judging but just stating to make a point of difference). However the reverse is not true, as a Dominant it is difficult as you always see yourself as a protector, a confidant, a forgiver and it is also unethical to break someone's immense trust in you even after termination, a trust that you earned and cherished so much.

2. A sub can act immaturely, act out for want of attention, the Dom is not at a liberty to act out and always has to act maturely (Note that maturely is not the same as seriously or lacking playfulness). They have to worry/be responsible about the mental well being of the sub as well along with their own and oddly they also need to practice more restraint as to control you need to be in control too.

3. Any good dominant would always promote the sub to be vocal of their needs (maybe there will be a system they will put into effect to facilitate this like a sub's journal etc) and pay heed to the subs needs. However it is difficult for a Dom to be vocal about their own needs when the focus of the dynamic for both the Dom and the sub is the sub. Out of the subs that I have had so far, the ones with prior experience as a Dominant have always seemed more considerate about my needs, issues and perspective as a Dominant and a human too imo.

4. When things don't work effectively on either side, the residual responsibility to take initiative to communicate (eg. locating problem areas and solving them with clarity, farsightedness and maturity so the dynamic is effective) also almost always falls on the shoulders of an ethical Dom imo where their decisions shouldn't reflect selfish interests but do what's mutually best. It is not that a submissive is in anyways inadequate to do all this, but crudely put in a sexist way, it is kind of a division of labour that power exchange dynamics often facilitate but since one size doesn't fit all, exceptions exist!

I hope I haven't overwhelmed people with my posts here. Like @Lilly131 said, an interesting topic with possibly many right answers

So Please don't end this discussion here, look forward to more discussion, reading different opinions and personal experiences on this topic

 

[camaikun]

Wow Nina, a very interesting post to read through. Definitely agree on the point that dominants have to act with more maturity. The ease with which someone can fake being a dom or sub entirely depends on how much one is willing to trust another person at first sight. However, a true sub needs a real dominant to help them try to reach subspace and get out the other side into a safe space provided by the dominant.

I've had one sub who truly cared about me as a dom and would ask how I'm doing. For the rest, it's always been about the sub unless I specifically brought up something.

On another note, what about ghosting? Do you think it is easier for a sub to ghost a dominant than the other way around? Or would you say that it all depends on the sincerity of the relationship in the first place?

 

[nina]

On another note, what about ghosting? Do you think it is easier for a sub to ghost a dominant than the other way around? Or would you say that it all depends on the sincerity of the relationship in the first place?

Nice question and sorry for the long answer..

When I was exploring my submissive side, I honestly felt ghosting was something easier for Dominants to do because I believed a sub was too emotionally dependent on the Dom to be able to ghost on them. However when I started exploring Domination I realised it is something to do with individual personalities and how or how less emotionally vulnerable or involved/invested they tend to get in relationships and Doms could be in the receiving end of ghosting just as much.

So yes, I agree it depends on sincerity of the relationship but even then a sincere relationship with all the exit protocols actively communicated is also not completely invincible (even though less likely) from the threat that one can possibly ghost another in an online platform imo, (of course if you know them in real life you can chase them down and interrogate them..lol) as an equivalence in sincerity is seldom achieved between both parties and often boils down to individual personality types.

Having said that, I would say my personal emotional vulnerability is a little less as a Domme (say 80%..lol) than was as a sub (say 100%) that is I can heal relatively faster as a Domme being ghosted upon..lol and it is not because I am less invested as a Domme, I think it is just due to the nature of any power exchange dynamic where a sub relies more on the Dom(me).

On a related note, I also believe a lot of how easy it is to heal depends on and is inversely related to the strength and longevity of the relationship and I personally find the first successful D/s relationships (both forming the sub mindset for the first time and forming the Dom(me) mindset for the first time) tend to be one of the strongest ones or have a lasting impression in our minds as there is no prior emotional baggage. Of course people say you improve with experience but then you also lose your raw innocence.

Lastly generally people who ghost are insincere and inconsiderate, but very rarely it is also those who are unable to communicate effectively for various reasons, their unhappiness or non-suitability etc wrt the situation and even in such cases ghosting is not justifiable. I always believe everyone deserves at least a last note to know the other person's reasons for ending things. The worst part of ghosting is the hope that you have in the first few days, followed by the endless wondering about whether it has really ended and to everyone out there, don't do it to other people if you don't want it done to you.

 

[J91]

Just a few thoughts that have popped up from the recent posts that have resonated with me and wanted to contribute.

I don’t necessarily think that Domination requires a more mature outlook than submission (no pitchforks, just musings!) – I think that done properly both of the roles require both parties to be mature. In fact, I think where this idea comes form is the fact that most of the time, submissive are often new to exploring the kink and seek being guided or taken though the process by someone more experienced. This in itself encourages the Dom/me to be more mature in their outlook towards the relationship because they have a responsibility to both parties. What about if you have an experienced submissive and an inexperienced Dom/me? Well, it would require a flip in how both parties handle the relationship.

I have experienced the other way, where as a sub I guided someone else through the process, and it wasn’t nearly as effective. Is that because the dynamics were the wrong way round? Well…potentially. I suppose by virtue of a D/s relationship, you do kind of expect the Dom/me to have all the answers and to be the guiding force – could this be a wrong assumption of roles to make?

I have empathised with some of my Domme’s before, and tried to create a safe space where they feel comfortable enough to also let go emotionally, because, for all the reasons mentioned above, it is a drain mentally to constantly be the lead in any type of relationship. Does this mean that the power dynamics aren’t always right? Well, no I don’t think so. It just means that some of the responsibility of the relationship can fall on both parties as opposed to always falling on the Dom/me which I do think is unfair. Which is where Nina’s point three comes into consideration – both parties should always be considerate of each other.

Now speaking about the ending of a relationship, I think I do disagree with Nina’s point, purely based on some of the people I have entered relationships with. I have always found that I am the most mature one when it comes to taking initiative on how to move forward from the end of a D/s relationship. I do think that some kind of communication on both ends is important for both parties to move forward, and it should most definitely be a responsibility of both.

On the flip side, and looking at the difficulties of submission as opposed to Dominance, I wanted to raise just how difficult it is to truly submit to someone else. Out of the five-ish relationships that I have had, I would only say that I have truly submitted to two of them. One of them was my very first, and the second, an exceptionally experienced Domme who is now a good friend. In order to submit properly and fully, you are expected to put your trust in someone else’s hands, without question. To be emotionally, physically and sexually dependent on someone else is most definitely not easy and it takes a lot of internal struggling to get to that point where you feel fully submissive to another person. It’s a strange feeling to describe, but you are essentially giving someone else the power to break and abuse you, but trusting that they will take your submission seriously. I don’t think the Dominant is left as emotionally vulnerable as the submissive in most relationships. As they can dictate the terms of the relationship, they can take things at a pace (both emotionally and physically), that suits them. A true submissive would follow blindly, even if it meant not being fully ready.

 

[nina]

I don’t necessarily think that Domination requires a more mature outlook than submission (no pitchforks, just musings!) – I think that done properly both of the roles require both parties to be mature. In fact, I think where this idea comes form is the fact that most of the time, submissive are often new to exploring the kink and seek being guided or taken though the process by someone more experienced. What about if you have an experienced submissive and an inexperienced Dom/me? Well, it would require a flip in how both parties handle the relationship.

I get your point, and it is true for me too, since as a sub I am primarily attracted to older people and thus have experienced submissiveness to only much more experienced Dominants, I haven't considered or am in a position to understand the flip side yet so I wrote my views based on my current level of experience only. As a Domme since I was new to this side, I refrained from exploring with very experienced people initially and only my current one is someone I feel at par with my experience and maturity level, not less not more.

However in my limited experience of exploring both sides, I do feel Domination requires a more mature outlook and it is not as optional in dominance as it can be with submission. Of course I do not believe that subs are inadequate in anyway or all are equally or less mature than their Doms like I have already mentioned (and underlined in my original post) but if I could quantify it, the surplus amount of the sub's maturity that exceeds the Dom's level of maturity does not seem to be the focus in a traditional power dynamic imo (as the sub does not generally get to express that surplus over the regular?). Though personally it can be a bliss to some Dominants..lol

I have experienced the other way, where as a sub I guided someone else through the process, and it wasn’t nearly as effective. Is that because the dynamics were the wrong way round? Well…potentially. I suppose by virtue of a D/s relationship, you do kind of expect the Dom/me to have all the answers and to be the guiding force – could this be a wrong assumption of roles to make?

This is very interesting, and I hope someone here experienced in this can throw some light on this. However having said that I do not assume that all the responsibility should lie on the Dominant or that there is any need to act as a perfect human being having all the answers. In fact personally I am very open about sharing my weaknesses and lack of experience and I do not think it dilutes my dominance in any way, it only shows I am someone genuine and relatable, a desired quality in a Dominant imo. What I am trying to say is responsibility to act maturely lies on both but while some subs assume those responsibilities, some don't but it is often less frowned upon (than when a Dom is irresponsible.. this could also be due to social conditioning of roles like you mention) so they get more leeway in that respect and the residual responsibility to act maturely lies on the Dominant unfortunately at least imo.

I have empathised with some of my Domme’s before, and tried to create a safe space where they feel comfortable enough to also let go emotionally, because, for all the reasons mentioned above, it is a drain mentally to constantly be the lead in any type of relationship. Does this mean that the power dynamics aren’t always right? Well, no I don’t think so.

In fact this is what I like most about this sub who I find equally emotionally mature, considerate and someone with prior Dominant experience. Beyond the dynamic we are friends and I equally vent to her like she does to me. I mentioned that point earlier as many subs don't understand or are considerate enough about a Dominant's issue because of the nature of dynamic focussed on the sub.

Now speaking about the ending of a relationship, I think I do disagree with Nina’s point, purely based on some of the people I have entered relationships with. I have always found that I am the most mature one when it comes to taking initiative on how to move forward from the end of a D/s relationship. I do think that some kind of communication on both ends is important for both parties to move forward, and it should most definitely be a responsibility of both.

My point 1 relates to ending of the relationship and point 4 does not talk about ending of a relationship (maybe my wording confused you so I've added the word do not work 'effectively') but it talks about when things are not working as desired or a rocky phase of the relationship and some intervention is needed to make things better. Yes, both parties are equally responsible but like I mentioned above, some subs may be mature but some aren't and some are and may bring it to Dom(me)'s attention but may still rely on the Dom(me) to make structural changes as it is generally assumed to be their residual responsibility (and also only in their power) to intervene and make the big changes to the control regime, or rules to facilitate more communication etc. Again I agree that this may be a narrow insight based on my limited experience as I have never Dommed someone with a lot more experience and vice versa.

A true submissive would follow blindly, even if it meant not being fully ready.

I totally disagree with this. In fact one thing I have loved about all my subs so far is that they question(ed) (inquisitively) my every decision. I, being the thoughtful (and practical) person I am..lol, love explaining my thoughts and objectives behind each aspect of dominance I want to enforce and more often than not they are convinced.. yay nina - 1, sub = 0, lol. And having said that I am not shy to make modifications to my structure/tasks etc if the sub brings to my notice something I had missed.

In fact my focus is to make the controls and subby mindset effective (so that our efforts achieve desired results and do not go in vain) which can never happen without some inputs from the sub and discussion. I don't think submission is not being able to question, that's the type of leadership imposed out of fear. Submission is not losing your ability to think but rather it is when you rationally think and then conclude that you look up to someone and wish to follow their lead or submit to them, when you trust their judgement and not just their intent. That is why we say submission is earned and not taken. Of course you shouldn't question just to annoy and when they explain try to understand their perspective with an open mind too.

I always like a healthy discussion as it helps me to understand things better, learn from a different perspective and grow so thank you for sharing your insights on my views, very appreciated

 

[J91]

As I only have experience with one side of the coin, so to speak, I can't necessarily comment on everything with complete certainty. That being said, yes, I agree with you that it is usually upto the Dominant to 'take up the slack' in most relationships and I haven't really come across many Dominants who are willing to admit their shortfalls in a positive way thereby opening the streams of communication. It most definitely usually relies on the Dominant to make structural changes to the relationship, and I agree that submissives to some extent expect this to be done for them, however, probably the most successful relationships have an input from both. Whether this can come from a online dynamic, I'm not sure.

I totally disagree with this. In fact one thing I have loved about all my subs so far is that they question(ed) (inquisitively) my every decision. That is why we say submission is earned and not taken.

Maybe it was a wrong choice of wording, and I just wanted to explain a little further briefly, as I don't want to share too much publicly. I am talking here about one, and only one specific relationship. After a period of time together, she was adamant that my submission was mine to give and not hers to take, and so the dynamic grew organically over a period of time. For me, these intense feelings of submission grew over a long period of time, and gradually I felt myself following more and questioning less. That's not to say that I didn't ask for clarifications or explanations, but they were needed less and less over time due to the amount of trust that had built up, and it led to me willing and asking for my limits to be pushed further and further. So maybe following blindly was the wrong choice of wording, but in actual fact I meant complete and utter trust and willing submission.

Gathering the rest of my thoughts...a bit of a deep topic for a Monday night!

 

[camaikun]

The point about experience from both parties is a good one. The fact that the stereotypical dominant is an experienced, older person does present the dominant as the more mature party but I definitely see why and how the sub could be more mature or both be as mature as each other.

When I first got into kink, I was the type of sub who would go for a one night thing then disappear because that was thrilling to me. But, after a while I realised that I couldn't truly submit to someone and began experimenting with the dom side of things - to much greater success.
As a dom, I've been ghosted a few times and for me, the couple week or so period of time after they disappear off the face of the earth is hard as I can grow strongly attached to a person fairly quickly.
So, from my perspective, it is easier to ghost as a sub, but that's going to be different for everyone.

I do think submission is something that the sub gives to the dominant, the dominant has to earn the trust of the sub by proving their attachment so to speak. But, I also believe that the sub has to earn the trust and care of the dominant. When trust is mutually established, submission is more easily granted and dominance more easily established.

I think the difference between a submissive and a slave is that the slave is, or should be, more ready to submit even if they don't feel fully ready it in that moment. The sub has more of a choice in when to give their submission to the dominant. Saying that, if whoever the person is really doesn't feel like doing something or feel ready at all, the dominant should always listen to them and make a cool headed judgment.

Definitely a deep topic for a Monday night!

 

[nina]

The point about experience from both parties is a good one. The fact that the stereotypical dominant is an experienced, older person does present the dominant as the more mature party but I definitely see why and how the sub could be more mature or both be as mature as each other.

I agree the stereotype has to play a role in it. Would add a small random observation, in a straight D/s, Male dom, female sub, you know no matter how new you are as a sub, there are certain emotional aspects that females have an edge on understanding over men (now I don't want to digress and turn it into a gender debate and am speaking only based on my limited observations) which we can also call maturity at some level. However, personally I feel that often when a sub is more mature than a Dominant, the communication is generally done at the Dom's level of maturity and does not rise much to a higher level than that even though the sub is capable of that, as the 'traditional' nature of the dynamic does not provide the sub with a platform to express that. Again my personal views only which are subject to change as I explore more, and to each their own.

As a dom, I've been ghosted a few times and for me, the couple week or so period of time after they disappear off the face of the earth is hard as I can grow strongly attached to a person fairly quickly.
So, from my perspective, it is easier to ghost as a sub, but that's going to be different for everyone.

I do think submission is something that the sub gives to the dominant, the dominant has to earn the trust of the sub by proving their attachment so to speak.

Yes I agree it is different for everyone. Maybe depends on how much we emotionally rely on them.