I read somewhere that in a D/s relationship, punishment is not for fun, and therefore safe words are not applicable during punishment. It suggested the Dom to observe if the punishment is exceeding the sub’s limit. I wonder if that’s true?
Safewords applicable during punishment?
- Thread starter appleicetea
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Ignoring savewords or strait up not allowing the use of them sounds like abuse.
Bdsm should be about fun and play, limits etc can change betwene days, I can not assume that I know someone else's boddy better than they themselfs.
If use of safeword is restricted, play is no longer consensual.
Yes a safeword is needed, but For me I prefer the mistress to make up her own mind. giving me a safe word gives me more control that i want..
So I would have to know my mistress well before I venture into her ignoring my safeword...I have to depend on her to guide me into uncharted BDSM, where she decides when it is enough.
In my mind a good Mistress listens to her sub and hears his begging for mercy...and she decides.....and sometimes it hurts too much, but that's why I visit her.
So I would have to know my mistress well before I venture into her ignoring my safeword...I have to depend on her to guide me into uncharted BDSM, where she decides when it is enough.
In my mind a good Mistress listens to her sub and hears his begging for mercy...and she decides.....and sometimes it hurts too much, but that's why I visit her.
I think I can bring some nuance here.
Generally speaking, what they all said is right. If you are a sub in a bdsm relationship and nothing else is negotiated, taking away your safeword is a huge red flag and abuse, even during punishment.
There are different ways to go about safewords though:
1) A safeword can be used when a sub is not having fun anymore.
2) A safeword can be used when a sub can not take it anymore.
3) A safeword can be used when a sub is at risk of getting caught, or of lasting harm or because of medical reasons.
4) A safeword can be something the sub does not get to have. Usually, this happens with consensual non-consent (CNC) and/or total power exchange (TPE)
There are still plenty more variants of use of safewords that I did not list here but you get the idea I think.
All those uses or the lack of uses of safewords are valid if that is what is agreed upon beforehand. Especially with CNC and TPE, people do tend to consider themselves to be slaves rather than subs and they feel like they should not have the right to have a safe word.
If the sub/slave agrees with her having no rights to a safeword when being punished and is willing to be broken after, that is can be valid and in the interest of both parties. If the dom decided this for the sub on his/her own and pushes this onto the sub/slave, that is abusive. Especially when the dom does talk about this only once the punishment is started/is about to start. This is one of those things that have to be talked and negotiated about way beforehand.
Generally speaking, what they all said is right. If you are a sub in a bdsm relationship and nothing else is negotiated, taking away your safeword is a huge red flag and abuse, even during punishment.
There are different ways to go about safewords though:
1) A safeword can be used when a sub is not having fun anymore.
2) A safeword can be used when a sub can not take it anymore.
3) A safeword can be used when a sub is at risk of getting caught, or of lasting harm or because of medical reasons.
4) A safeword can be something the sub does not get to have. Usually, this happens with consensual non-consent (CNC) and/or total power exchange (TPE)
There are still plenty more variants of use of safewords that I did not list here but you get the idea I think.
All those uses or the lack of uses of safewords are valid if that is what is agreed upon beforehand. Especially with CNC and TPE, people do tend to consider themselves to be slaves rather than subs and they feel like they should not have the right to have a safe word.
If the sub/slave agrees with her having no rights to a safeword when being punished and is willing to be broken after, that is can be valid and in the interest of both parties. If the dom decided this for the sub on his/her own and pushes this onto the sub/slave, that is abusive. Especially when the dom does talk about this only once the punishment is started/is about to start. This is one of those things that have to be talked and negotiated about way beforehand.
If you as the submissive voluntary refuse to have a safeword, it's your own decision. I wouldn't consider this SSC, but it's probably okay under the RACK principles.
Agreed. It is the submissives right to decide that they don't want a safeword. If I was their Domme, I wouldn't play with them in this case, but your mileage may vary. In the end it's only okay if all persons involved have voluntarily agreed upon the terms.
The source really is important here. But for the general use. A dynamic begins with negotiation and agreements. Safewords should be included in this agreement. Whether an actual word or action or a traffic light signal approach. Red stop, yellow slow discussion needed, green keep going. Or just pineapple all stop.
Ok that being said punishment is sort of bullshit in many ways people try to use it in kink. Many ways are more effective at correcting an undesired behavior then just punishing someone. Further more the brainless shallow punish by spanking edging or denial is just a big yawn and lacks all around.
A word of caution on this subject. I have seen several times a “Dom” uses that whole punishment approach to do something he wants that the sub wouldnt normally do or is outside her limits boundaries. They claim it’s to help them learn (insert other bullshit excuses). Fact of the matter they are using it to manipulate the sub.
For example. Sub limit is no anal.
“Dom” says I’m going to punish you for not saying yes sir by making you do anal. It’s not supposed to be enjoyed it’s punishment. FUCK HIM!!! This is clearly someone who doesn’t respect limits and in turn just is manipulating the sub for his own wants.
Now strictly to the effect of safewords. Yes all my subs have them and or the traffic signal approach. That being said seldom do they have to use it because I listen learn and pay attention to them and their signals and body. I’d say on average for my subs keeping a long term dynamic in place maybe 1-2 safewords a year get used. Again back to the level of effort by the Dom.
Now as to part of are they needed in punishment? For sure If it’s a new dynamic, if it’s a new action, if safewords get used frequently during your normal actions together. I think the option to use a safeword should always be there but as you get a good relationship you’ll be needing it less and less just due to communication and an attentive Dom.
For that matter it's probably better to divide likes/limits into a broader approach. I for example don't like denial, but it does something with me. I don't think it's a limit, because it's not something I wouldn't do. Heck, I sometimes do it to myself. But I don't enjoy denial like I do with an orgasm. It's somewhere in between.
Those things would be perfect to punish me. I wouldn't enjoy it, but it's still not breaking any limit.
A good and experienced dominant person will always try to avoid situations that require a safeword. Some submissive hesitate from using it even in situations which they really want to end right now. That said even a good and experienced dominant person is not perfect, humans never are.
In addition a dominant person is not experienced from the start. Everybody needs to learn eventually. And even experienced people will learn every now and then. It's good to have a safeword at hand in those cases.
Agreed.
I don’t have the source right now but I believe very likely I read it from an ebook. It should be a book that serves as a guideline for BDSM or for Doms. It’s very surprising to me when I read that.
Thanks all for the information.
One more follow up question on the use of safe word. So in my case, yellow means slow down, and red means stop. But then I was whipped by a crop and it landed on my bone/joint, which was not intended but my Dom probably wasn’t aware of that either. It was very painful and I was confused if I should say “yellow” because “slowing down” is not going to help, it was about hitting the wrong spot. Therefore I didn’t use safe word. So what should have done in that situation? Do Doms usually ask immediately what went wrong when their sub use a safe word?
That depends. You're using the traffic lights system. So if you use yellow, the dominant person probably tries to slow down without actually stopping the session. If you use red, the dominant person should immediately stop the session and start aftercare. That's the perfect time for talking about what went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again.
This is all varying by personal agreement and is something often overlooked during beginning talks. Since one doesn’t think of it until it happens. So for my Particular local at the moment. We do yellow means pause what I’m doing long enough to allow her time to explain what got her there usually a few seconds at most and continuing on as I adjust to whatever she discussed. Red is a full stop on the scene and it may or may not start up again but def not on the level it stopped at. It is discussed st length and aftercare applied If needed on the spot. Most times the culprit action is laid aside for the duration of that day and after scene discussed even further in detail. With ways to make it better next time or if it’s taken out all together.
What sounds like happened with you was an accident and should have been a quick “hey you messed this up it hurts me in a not good way. Avoid doing it again. Lets keep going.” If you were up to it.
I am concerned though when you said he landed a bad hit and didn’t notice it, that maybe he wasn’t as experienced as he claimed to be.
I’ll say this on experience. Lots of people claim they’re experienced for years when in fact they’re just browsing fetlife or kink talk and causally tasking people online once and a while. Far from actual years of Exp in doing the actions themselves consistently. Always do your best to vet when you can.
Sorry follow up. So the other thing is first few times with a new partner and any pick up play I always request the sub uses a safeword for an all stop instead of anything else since I don’t yet know her well enough to read her body language or where her sensitive spots are. It also helps so sometimes explore the kink action without any intent or passion in it. For example impact around the body to test what works for her and what level of impact to hit with so like smack easy check in, increase some check in, harder Check in, this helps me see where her limit is at much easier and less negative effect than it just popping up mid scene. This also allows her to talk the entire time saying harder softer lower higher Etc
A couple of things that haven't really been made clear so far in this discussion.
First up, what is the concept of a "safe word" and why is it needed at all? The foundation for using a safe word is in BDSM or kinky play where regular discourse or chat is not going to work. For instance, if your play is going to include you saying things like "no" or "stop" as a kind of role play to be ignored then you need a safe word to replace those things.
It's really easy to get carried away in the midst of an intense scene and all kinds of things may be said, you don't want to keep doing the "did you really mean stop just then?" thing which breaks the mood. Hence we have safe words, specific words that wouldn't come up in normal play and will instantly stand out to stop play.
There are a bunch of different ways this can be implemented, the traffic light system is probably the most common as it's easy to understand but I know plenty of people who use just a single word. In this case it usually means "stop, what I'm going to say next is not part of the play" and this works fine especially for people who've known each other a long time and just need a "time out" alert.
So getting back to your question, as you can never be sure when it will be needed it's essential to always have a safe word, always. Things happen and you need to be able to signal you are not prepared to continue.
Which leads me directly to my second point, consent. I won't go on at length here as I cover it in much more detail in this KTU post, but basically if at any point, for any reason one party wants to stop, you stop. No if's or but's, just stop. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, it doesn't have to make sense to you but you must respect that.
I'd also suggest reading this post as well, an in depth discussion on safety which looks at how it applies in the BDSM dynamic.
As always, keep it safe, keep it sane and keep it consensual.
Thanks for sharing sources in further information
because as a newbie I do feel confused / struggle when to use a safe word although I know that’s my right.
In addition while it helps to have experience with spanking themselves, spanking another person is a whole new world.
Fully agreed!
... or RACK, but for startes SSC is probably a much better choice. You can only be risk aware if you... well... know the risks, like really know.
The most important thing is to never stop learning.Yes, I should have pointed that out during the play! Lesson learnt.
It's not only your right, but also your obligation. The dominant person need your feedback to grow and get better. And they trust you to be honest about what happens.Thanks for sharing sources in further information
Yes, that’s an important clarification.
The reasons for me to hesitate whether to use safe word is that-
1) I assume my Dom wants to continue what he’s doing and I want to please him;
2) I don’t know when that particular play will end, and I want to push my limit. Say, if I know the spanking will end when I count to a certain number, then I can kind of estimate if I can endure until then, and decide if I need to use the safe word.
But when I actually don’t know how many more / how much longer it’ll take, I tend to push my own limit more and more, with a hope that this will end soon. If I could endure until it’s done, I will have a sense of achievement, which I assume could also make my Dom feel satisfied. But this may also end up me being hurt a bit too much that even the “yellow” safeword (slowing down) couldn’t help.
Also, if I have already used the safeword in a session, I really try not to use it again because I can’t help being afraid that would be a turn off for my Dom even he told me that’s not the case. I know I shouldn’t feel this way but there’s always this gap between theory and reality.
Yeah, it is your own choice after all. If you want to push your limit, that's fine. Your body, your choice.
I know that feeling of achievement pretty well and I can understand why you want to experience it. When I play I use the traffic light system, but I also hesitate you use the yellow keyword because it feels good to achieve. And as long as it's what I want, it's consensual. The hard part is to differentiate if it still is good or not.
Well yeah. There sure is a gap and I had sessions like this myself. When my nipples hurt a lot, but I pushed myself. Reality isn't black or white, most of the time it's more or less grey.
This is interesting, and I would again refer you to the post I referenced previously about safety.
@subdream has referred several times to RACK, risk aware consensual kink. This is a concept I cover in the safety discussion specifically in how that applies to consent. When you consent to engage in a particular activity with your Dom you should be fully aware of what that activity entails, nothing should come as a surprise to you with regards to how safe you feel.
In my opinion engaging in any kind of open ended activity (such as your spanking example) is very fraught. Any good Dom will be well aware that their sub is going to try to please them by enduring as much as possible, this should never be abused to the point of "lets see how far we can go".
Exploring limits is very much a part of the D/s experience but that should always happen in a controlled and safe way. Again using your example, I would recommend extending spanking incrementally. So for instance, this time it will be 20, next time 30, and then 40 spanks. This should be communicated clearly, the sub is fully aware or the risk and able to make an informed judgement as to how doable this is for them.
Progress is made and limits extended all while feeling confident of your situation.
If at any point you do not feel willing to use your safeword for fear of putting off your Dom then they have failed you, not the other way around. The safeword is like the seatbelt in your car, it's there for when something goes wrong, there should be no confusion about it's use.
A seatbelt is of no use if you only decide to put it on when you think something bad is about to happen, it's there for the unexpected. Using your safeword should be just as automatic, there when you need it, no hesitation to use it.
When things are working well in a D/s relationship you shouldn't be needing to use your safeword at all. A Dom who uses safewords as a guide is either being lazy or showing their inexperience. It's like a driver parallel parking by bumping into other cars to fit the space (sorry for more car metaphors!)
Safewords are absolutely essential but should rarely if ever be needed. You always need to know with certainty what you are consenting to, this is the fundamental first step of RACK. You can't consent to something you don't fully understand, but if you fully understand what is going on then you can stop worrying about when to use your safeword. You'll know when you need it.
Well... that probably depends. I love the feeling of being helpless, of not knowing how long I have to endure. I like to be pushed to my limits, with regards to pain. And I love to be pushed slightly over this limit. And I understand that it's pretty difficult for a dominant person to hit that sweet spot, it is even very difficult for myself and I know my body probably much batter then any dominant person ever will. But well, then it's no longer abuse if the dominant person does this, so what I just said isn't really objecting your statement.
Fully agreed. I still understand if somebody hesitates from using it. Use of safeword can break the whole session and in some circumstances that might be something a submissive doesn't want. Like when I love the session but there is one bite to my nipples which hurts in a bad way. I would probably suck it just to keep enjoying the session. I know that this is probably bad behavior, but it's still my body that I decide upon.
You do need "driving lessons" though. And since must couples don't want a "driving instructor" while doing BDSM, there will be a learning curve which probably involves using the safeword. Well at least if your dominant person isn't like the one I'm playing with every now and then. They are much less sadistic than me being masochistic, so most of the time I'm not hitting the sweet spot at all. Fortunately I'm also very submissive.
If there is any uncertainty, and most of the time there is, you should at least know the implications what that means and what might result from this uncertainty. Like if you plan an abduction play, there is a possibility for a witness that calls the cops. Or for the victim to experience a shock.
